Ok, sounds simple right? Should be... but let's see what we nail down in the comments. We may be surprised in our lack of understanding or agreement on very basic Gospel truths.
In your comment, list whatever you see as the necessary elements of salvation?
Or rather what isn't essential for salvation?...
ReplyDeleteI would say baptism, confirmation, membership in a church, and church attendance...I'm sure you can think of more.
What is essential? - Receiving Jesus into your heart and making him the Lord of your life. Believing that he died for your sins and rose again relieving you of any punishment for killing him. Because of these things and repenting of your sins, you will, in turn, no longer want to sin and can live with a confidence that you are saved.
i agree with ben for the essentials and mostly with the non-essentials also. however i think that the "non-essentials" are important and should be participated in because they help with spiritual growth
ReplyDeletewell obviously nathan...jeez. haha
ReplyDeleteI would say this, and let's see where it goes.
ReplyDeleteThere is *NO* requirement for salvation that God has not already met for you in Christ.
Christ is the one and ONLY requirement for salvation! Belief, repentance, faith, and such are all fruits that with *absolute certainty* will accompany salvation, but none will produce it.
You bring up an interesting and challenging thought, Jay. (And please do call me Dennis by the way.) Salvation is in Christ alone, and there is certainly nothing that we can do except to affirm this truth. Perhaps I might bring up another issue, that may take the discussion in a different direction. I just listened to a message by Tim Keller, and made the comment that ultimately the purpose of salvation is to create a new kind of community. . . that personal salvation is merely a means to God's ultimate end. . .a people that would represent His reality in a radical manner until the day of His return. Our individual notions of personal salvation, while certainly valid, have greatly diminished what I see as God's deeper purpose. And the result is that it has created much confusion and disillusionment. In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul speaks of the "eternal purpose" of God "carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord." He says the thie included that the "manifold wisdom of God might now be made known throught the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places." If this is one of God's primary purposes in Creation, then it seems to me that "accepting Jesus as my personal Savior" or attending worship once or twice a week is only scratching the surface. And further, our highly individualized notions in Western culture further limit what the Lord truly wishes to do through His church. In addition, I think that "salvation," in accord to His moving in human history and His larger purposes, should be viewed as past, present, and future. He has saved, He is saving, and in the end He will save, ultimately at the "restoration of all things" when He returns to reign on earth. It seems to me, that until we truly begin living as the people of God, in radical commitment to one another, then we are only experiencing a small part of the "salvation" God wishes to express in and through us. I am "saved" or "born again," but there is so much more He desires for me as part of His church. Jesus goes so far to say that the "world will know that you are disciples of mine by the love you have for one another." In all honesty, I have only experienced this type of community on rare occasions in my Christian experience.
ReplyDeleteso so good Dennis. Also a fan of Keller. Individualistic salvation focus has created churches full of potential converts driven entirely by the purpose of creating converts, but converts to what? Converts to the purpose of creating converts? There is a total neglect of being saved into the glorious body of Christ. Good stuff dennis. I am here at lakeside with Ben, Daniel, and Nathan right now... great youth.
ReplyDeleteI hope that you guys have a great time there. I appreciate your encouraging words, but please feel free to challenge anything that I express; I definately will not be offended. I still have many issues that I am working through, and I appreciate a forum where these can be discussed and challenged.
ReplyDeleteDennis, I certainly will not shy away if I see something amiss, but as for right now it is nice to go back and forth in agreement. I often wonder if I am some sort of theological dinosaur or lone wolf when I look around. While every position I hold seems to be common in the history of the Church, these common beliefs seem painfully rare today.
ReplyDeleteas an aside... it is official that Ben Schilling does not have the mental fortitude to hang with a comment as long as your last one. (He wouldn't have made a good puritan.)
ReplyDeleteYeah that's definitely above ACT 28 level stuff there...
ReplyDeleteDespite it's unprecedented length...I think I got the jist of what you said Mr Rabb and I agree. I would also say that it is the individual salvation that sort of spurs on the community salvation within the Church body.
I could be completely off in my interpretation so correct me if I am wrong.
In response to Jay's comment, are you saying, Jay, that you don't need to believe in Jesus to be saved? That everyone is saved regardless of whether they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? What would be the point of believing and repentance, on the part of the Christian if this is true??
Good question Ben. . . I am quite certain that Jay is not say individual salvation is not important. Nevertheless, much of what we have witnessed in terms of the Gospel has focused almost exclusively on the individual. We have developed a few simple "formulas". . . the sinner's prayer, an evangelica "lingo" for salvation, and a convenient list of do's and don'ts. While these may bring a sense of security for us, I, like Jay, question whether they are the focal points in Scripture. For instance, how many times does Jesus use the term "born again?" In fact, if you look at the context, Jesus is attempting to discourage Nicodemus away from a "formula." Ironically, we have taken this term and made it into a formula. I am not saying that this is necessarily wrong. Yet I do wonder why I have heard countless sermons on being "born again" while relatively few on materialism and our use of money, which Jesus refers to countless times. Anyway, just a few thoughts.
ReplyDeleteBen, good question. You must believe, repent, and have faith in order to be saved, but belief, repentance and faith are all gifts given by the Christ who saves you.
ReplyDeleteThis is a horribly simplistic example, so don't take it to far, but it is as though Christ opens the door to a theme park hands you a ticket so you can walk through, and stamps your hand so you have proof that you should be there. The ticket is required for entry, and stamp is required to be allowed to stay, they are both requirements, but they are requirements met by Christ.
So what was the requirement for you to get in? Christ. He met all other requirements by his own doing. Follow?
Repentance is a change of disposition towards God and His law, that change of disposition produces change of action. Repentance is not change of action, doing a greek study on the word would be helpful to fundamentalist church at large in america. Repentance is harder than change of action, anyone can produce temporary change of action, but it takes the work of God to change disposition. Christ by the Spirit performs that work in us and for us.
Belief is much like repentance. Not a tacit recognition of existence but a belief in the actions purposes of Christ, and an understanding and agreement with who He is. You and I may say we do not believe in abortion, it is not that we deny it's existence, but that we do not ascent to it's validity. Belief in Christ is an ascent (not mere mental decision) to His validity. Again this is not something you can create in yourself, but it is His working. It is a requirement, but He meets it.
Faith is Defined in Hebrews 11:1 and described with great examples through the rest of that chapter. Again the scriptures testify rather clearly that faith is obtained as a gift of God through the Spirit because of the work of Christ. So again, we find, faith like belief and repentance is required for salvation, but is only from Christ.
The point I was making is that there is *NO* requirement for salvation that is not met for us by Christ Jesus.
If you aim for belief, you fall short in believing. If you aim for faith you fall short in having faith. If you aim for repentance you will never receive it. However if you aim for Christ He alone will impart all of the requirements for salvation unto you.
I am repentant not for Christ, but because of HIm. I believe not for Christ, but because of Christ, and I have faith not for Christ, but because of Him.
Sorry for the long answer, but does that clarify it a little?
Very well said Jay. I don't know that I have ever read an explanation of salvation that is so succinct yet so very clear. I agree that we somehow place way too much emphasis on our part in salvation, when He has met every aspect. I think of the verse in Ephesians where Paul says that He has raised us up with Him to be seated in heavenly places. The act of being seated requires that we simply rest in Him and His work. Also, Hebrews speaks a great deal about there being a Sabbath rest for each of us in Christ. You are so right on in saying that our aim should be Christ alone.
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