Wednesday, June 2, 2010
Convo #2 - HEAVEN (Ben Schilling)
My sister and I were actually talking about this one. We found it interesting how in the Apostles' Creed it says something regarding Jesus to the effect of "he descended into hell...the third day he rose again" but in Luke 23:43 Jesus says to the two men next to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." So our question was did Jesus actually go to hell for three days like the Apostles' Creed? And if this is true then where did the two men next to him go?
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This is a great question!
ReplyDeleteWe have held this convo on twitter at one point also. The consensus was that this should not have been included in the apostles creed, or that the creed writers did not intend this to be a literal descending to hell, but that he endured the literal wrath of God against our sin (essentially 'hell').
Thoughts?
check this links:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/nov15.html
or the third page of this link
http://www.vorthosforum.com/export/Articles/Did%20Jesus%20Descend%20Into%20Hell.pdf
there is quite a bit about this online.
i agree with jay on this because the worst part of hell for those who do not believe, and this is my opinion, will be separation from God, and Jesus was separated from God for that short period of time which could be a figurative meaning of descending into hell
ReplyDeletewelcome to convo Nathan
ReplyDeleteThat was the postion of John Calvin w/ regard to the creed. I also totally agree that Jesus was literally forsaken by the Father. Hell is being outside of the favorable presence of God, which means the Creed is indeed correct in saying that Jesus descended to hell, at the same time the imagery that runs through our (at least my) mind as we read the creed is not accurate to the scriptures.
so rather than "descended into hell" maybe the wording should be more like "he was separated from the Father"??
ReplyDeleteFurthermore...Jay dont respond to this...who will we see in heaven?? will we see people that havent been born on earth yet? will we see people that havent died on earth yet?
ReplyDeletewe will see all believers both past and present. are you talking about who we will see when we die or when the world has ended?
ReplyDeletewill we see "future" believers tho?
ReplyDeleteGood question. I am saying if I were to die today...heaven forbid (pun intended)...who would I see?
I think we could also talk about who we would see when the world has ended. Similarly, will we be able to see those in hell and will people in hell be able to see us in heaven?
Even more furthermore...will the "new earth" be a new earth literally or will this earth be made new???
i dont think we would see future believers. i think we would see past believers and then we would see believers who die and go to heaven while we are there
ReplyDeletei think there will be a literal new earth because we are living on an imperfect earth and Gods new earth will be perfect. my thinking may be flawed but there you go
this question is actually appropriate for the amill v. premill convo. Amil we believe we are living resurrected life right now. In other words our conversion is the first resurrection, and then in the end there will be a final resurrection of the body.
ReplyDeleteI used to believe as ben on this up until maybe 6months ago, but no longer. I believe that immediately upon death we will be united with those who have gone before us. I do not believe we will all be resurrected as one at one time in the first resurrection because I believe in Christ we have already taken part in the first resurrection. However in the bodily resurrection we will all be resurrected at the same time... follow?
If you put both the first and second resurrection of rev20 in the future, then you must believe that there is either a holding tank of some sort that souls go awaiting that resurrection, or as Ben asserts that once transported out of time into eternity all will just be there already, both past present and future saints.
For the "new earth" situation, if thats what you would call it?, I think that when Christ comes back to earth he will make the earth we live on now perfect. I don't think that we will move to a different place, he will make all things new, it will be like a newer, better version of the Garden of Eden...only better. God will be living with us, no night, no sea, and no death.
ReplyDeleteYes I agree, this earth will be restored, recreated, whatever. 'Heaven' may be a bad word altogether for eternity. We talk a lot about going to heaven, and for the time being that is where we go, to reign with Christ... but at the time of the new heavens and new earth, it will be tangible physical dwelling... not mere spiritual state of joy.
ReplyDeleteAs a wise man once put it: "Heaven is not my home, I'm only passing through."...as opposed to the original phrase: "Earth is not my home, I'm only passing through."
ReplyDeleteThis actually came up at staff meeting today at Church. The text we were talking about was 'Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.'
ReplyDeleteThis inheritance of the earth is not theoretical, as many of the staff seemed to indicate. We in the Church at large have a very deficient understanding of eternity. I think too often we all think we understand something so we move on to the next thing, and then continue to presume our knowledge on issues. Later we find we have constructed large portions of our theology on faulty assumptions.
This is why i think it is so important to not be a 'bible only' christian, but to take in classic and even contemporary theology. Not because these authors are infallible, but because if our presumptions do not line up with 2000 years of Christian History the odds are that our presumptions though seemingly biblical are wrong.
I guess what I mean is this, we can read one text like John 3, then structure our entire system off of our understanding of that text failing to ever realize that our understanding of that text may be unbiblical in light of the rest of the scriptures.
blah blah blah... ramble ramble ramble... I am on a John 3 kick right now.
Yeah now that I look at that verse and read what you have to say I can honestly say that I would have read over that verse not thinking anything about end times. And that's just because Ive read it so many times before and its never been explained to me or Ive never made the connection.
ReplyDelete